1 00:00:11,690 --> 00:00:08,350 [Music] 2 00:00:13,650 --> 00:00:11,700 you can count on Adrian 3 00:00:17,510 --> 00:00:13,660 with Adrian Hill 4 00:00:19,609 --> 00:00:17,520 [Music] 5 00:00:21,529 --> 00:00:19,619 hello everyone this is Adrian Hill from 6 00:00:24,050 --> 00:00:21,539 Calgary Canada here to talk about 7 00:00:26,990 --> 00:00:24,060 pseudoscience in education this 8 00:00:28,970 --> 00:00:27,000 conversation was sparked by a Globe and 9 00:00:31,429 --> 00:00:28,980 Mail article and the Global Mail is a 10 00:00:33,229 --> 00:00:31,439 national Canadian newspaper about how 11 00:00:35,150 --> 00:00:33,239 the belief in the disproven learning 12 00:00:37,370 --> 00:00:35,160 styles is still prevalent within the 13 00:00:40,250 --> 00:00:37,380 Canadian education system the article 14 00:00:43,069 --> 00:00:40,260 which was written by Michael zagstra was 15 00:00:44,930 --> 00:00:43,079 titled quote is the theory of unique 16 00:00:47,630 --> 00:00:44,940 learning styles dragging down our 17 00:00:49,670 --> 00:00:47,640 education system end quote 18 00:00:51,770 --> 00:00:49,680 well what do I mean by learning styles 19 00:00:54,170 --> 00:00:51,780 well there are several different 20 00:00:56,750 --> 00:00:54,180 theories out there but the one I am most 21 00:00:59,750 --> 00:00:56,760 familiar with is called the vark model 22 00:01:03,229 --> 00:00:59,760 which encompasses V for visual learning 23 00:01:06,109 --> 00:01:03,239 a for oral learning R for reading and 24 00:01:08,210 --> 00:01:06,119 writing learning and K for kinesthetic 25 00:01:11,270 --> 00:01:08,220 learning Han Spark 26 00:01:13,550 --> 00:01:11,280 from Wikipedia quote students can use 27 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:13,560 the model and inventory to identify 28 00:01:18,530 --> 00:01:15,960 their preferred learning style and it is 29 00:01:20,630 --> 00:01:18,540 claimed improve their learning by 30 00:01:22,490 --> 00:01:20,640 focusing on the mode that benefits them 31 00:01:25,550 --> 00:01:22,500 the most end quote 32 00:01:27,530 --> 00:01:25,560 for example a visual learner will learn 33 00:01:29,990 --> 00:01:27,540 best if the material is presented via 34 00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:30,000 graphs charts pictures Etc and a 35 00:01:33,890 --> 00:01:31,920 kinesthetic learner learns best with 36 00:01:35,690 --> 00:01:33,900 Hands-On experiences that include 37 00:01:38,510 --> 00:01:35,700 touching and doing things like lab 38 00:01:40,730 --> 00:01:38,520 experiments or art projects 39 00:01:42,590 --> 00:01:40,740 I found that this belief was very 40 00:01:44,990 --> 00:01:42,600 prevalent with both teachers and 41 00:01:47,569 --> 00:01:45,000 students during my 30 plus years of 42 00:01:49,550 --> 00:01:47,579 teaching in two provinces 43 00:01:52,190 --> 00:01:49,560 I was curious to find out if other 44 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:52,200 teachers have had similar experiences so 45 00:01:57,230 --> 00:01:54,540 I called my teacher friends Kelly Burke 46 00:02:00,289 --> 00:01:57,240 and the skeptical Fairy Godmother from 47 00:02:03,770 --> 00:02:00,299 the internet aka the tooth fairy 48 00:02:05,450 --> 00:02:03,780 yes besides her two fairy roles she is a 49 00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:05,460 teacher as well 50 00:02:09,650 --> 00:02:07,380 besides learning styles our discussion 51 00:02:12,290 --> 00:02:09,660 includes right brain left brain homework 52 00:02:15,050 --> 00:02:12,300 myths high impact teaching strategies or 53 00:02:16,550 --> 00:02:15,060 hits and growth mindset versus fixed 54 00:02:18,890 --> 00:02:16,560 mindset 55 00:02:24,370 --> 00:02:18,900 something I was not familiar with we 56 00:02:30,890 --> 00:02:28,430 [Music] 57 00:02:34,250 --> 00:02:30,900 hello everyone welcome back to an 58 00:02:35,809 --> 00:02:34,260 episode of counting on Adrian and today 59 00:02:37,670 --> 00:02:35,819 I'm tackling the subject of 60 00:02:39,830 --> 00:02:37,680 pseudoscience and education something 61 00:02:41,869 --> 00:02:39,840 close to my heart since I was a high 62 00:02:44,089 --> 00:02:41,879 school math teacher for over 30 years 63 00:02:47,210 --> 00:02:44,099 and I have two guests with me I'm so 64 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:47,220 excited I have Kelly Burke she is from 65 00:02:52,250 --> 00:02:50,340 Delaware in the USA and we have Michelle 66 00:02:54,589 --> 00:02:52,260 bickersma hopefully I said that right 67 00:02:56,270 --> 00:02:54,599 Michelle and she is from Melbourne 68 00:02:58,070 --> 00:02:56,280 Australia we have an international 69 00:03:00,650 --> 00:02:58,080 perspective we're going to share today 70 00:03:04,130 --> 00:03:00,660 so welcome you guys 71 00:03:05,449 --> 00:03:04,140 thanks Adrian thanks for having me so 72 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:05,459 Kelly can you tell me a little bit about 73 00:03:11,690 --> 00:03:07,620 your your educational experience as a 74 00:03:13,910 --> 00:03:11,700 teacher yes so I teach students with 75 00:03:16,250 --> 00:03:13,920 severe and multiple disabilities I'm in 76 00:03:19,130 --> 00:03:16,260 a self-contained school I was the music 77 00:03:21,949 --> 00:03:19,140 teacher at the school for five years and 78 00:03:23,990 --> 00:03:21,959 now I teach in a high school classroom 79 00:03:27,350 --> 00:03:24,000 and Michelle can you tell us about your 80 00:03:29,809 --> 00:03:27,360 experience too I started teaching in 81 00:03:33,350 --> 00:03:29,819 high school here that is year seven to 82 00:03:35,330 --> 00:03:33,360 twelve but in the mid 90s and I've been 83 00:03:38,089 --> 00:03:35,340 in and out a little bit but I'm still 84 00:03:41,390 --> 00:03:38,099 there at my original school and I 85 00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:41,400 primarily teach Japanese but I also go 86 00:03:47,570 --> 00:03:44,220 in and out of the humanities as the need 87 00:03:50,089 --> 00:03:47,580 arises awesome so we have a variety of 88 00:03:52,910 --> 00:03:50,099 backgrounds math with me and special ed 89 00:03:54,949 --> 00:03:52,920 and music with Kelly and Japanese and 90 00:03:57,530 --> 00:03:54,959 the humanities the first thing I wanted 91 00:04:01,369 --> 00:03:57,540 to kind of talk about was the right 92 00:04:03,589 --> 00:04:01,379 brain left brain myth and the reason I 93 00:04:05,330 --> 00:04:03,599 wanted to start there is when I first 94 00:04:07,430 --> 00:04:05,340 started teaching as a brand new first 95 00:04:09,289 --> 00:04:07,440 year teacher at a province-wide 96 00:04:12,470 --> 00:04:09,299 professional development we all went 97 00:04:16,490 --> 00:04:12,480 into Vancouver in British Columbia and 98 00:04:18,050 --> 00:04:16,500 we had this amazing speaker and he was I 99 00:04:21,349 --> 00:04:18,060 believe a keynote speaker but you know 100 00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:21,359 memory can be wrong and he talked about 101 00:04:27,230 --> 00:04:24,000 brain and left brain with regards to 102 00:04:29,450 --> 00:04:27,240 education and I was absolutely sucked in 103 00:04:32,629 --> 00:04:29,460 he was charismatic he was he was 104 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:32,639 convincing and that then later on when I 105 00:04:35,570 --> 00:04:34,560 started realizing that some things 106 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:35,580 weren't 107 00:04:40,129 --> 00:04:38,160 quite what they seem I ran into an 108 00:04:42,950 --> 00:04:40,139 article actually in in science-based 109 00:04:45,950 --> 00:04:42,960 medicine that talked about the myth of 110 00:04:48,590 --> 00:04:45,960 right brain left brain and have you guys 111 00:04:50,090 --> 00:04:48,600 experienced that in your countries with 112 00:04:52,850 --> 00:04:50,100 education 113 00:04:56,270 --> 00:04:52,860 I personally haven't come across it in 114 00:04:58,249 --> 00:04:56,280 education I was never taught about that 115 00:05:00,650 --> 00:04:58,259 or anything like that as far as I 116 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:00,660 remember it hasn't been a thing more 117 00:05:05,930 --> 00:05:02,880 it's something I picked up from popular 118 00:05:08,749 --> 00:05:05,940 culture and just hearing other adults 119 00:05:11,270 --> 00:05:08,759 talk about it but I don't remember it in 120 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:11,280 the school setting interesting because 121 00:05:15,409 --> 00:05:13,020 it was definitely in our school setting 122 00:05:17,390 --> 00:05:15,419 obviously they're promoting it out of 123 00:05:19,370 --> 00:05:17,400 professional development which when I 124 00:05:21,950 --> 00:05:19,380 look back at what's the harm well I 125 00:05:25,610 --> 00:05:21,960 guess a waste of time is one thing but 126 00:05:27,230 --> 00:05:25,620 it is time consuming and there was 127 00:05:30,950 --> 00:05:27,240 probably a cost associated with it I 128 00:05:32,090 --> 00:05:30,960 would assume What About You Kelly and I 129 00:05:33,890 --> 00:05:32,100 was going to say the same thing as 130 00:05:37,129 --> 00:05:33,900 Michelle I haven't really encountered it 131 00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:37,139 as a teacher I encounter it you know in 132 00:05:43,129 --> 00:05:39,900 pop culture and like with friends but I 133 00:05:46,129 --> 00:05:43,139 think it can be harmful in that if it's 134 00:05:48,409 --> 00:05:46,139 shared with students it can make 135 00:05:50,270 --> 00:05:48,419 students put themselves into a box if 136 00:05:53,090 --> 00:05:50,280 you have a student who's thinking oh I'm 137 00:05:55,370 --> 00:05:53,100 really left brains so I'm not good at I 138 00:05:57,350 --> 00:05:55,380 forget which is which I forget to look 139 00:05:59,330 --> 00:05:57,360 good at math or Arts anyway but they say 140 00:06:01,790 --> 00:05:59,340 like I'm left brain so I'm not good at 141 00:06:03,950 --> 00:06:01,800 this and I am good at this correct it 142 00:06:07,010 --> 00:06:03,960 sets up expectations for themselves 143 00:06:09,110 --> 00:06:07,020 which they will then be more likely to 144 00:06:11,090 --> 00:06:09,120 fulfill yeah exactly so there's another 145 00:06:13,070 --> 00:06:11,100 harm that could be potential is putting 146 00:06:15,110 --> 00:06:13,080 yourself into a box and I think that 147 00:06:17,570 --> 00:06:15,120 leads nicely into learning styles 148 00:06:19,850 --> 00:06:17,580 because I think they're kind of linked 149 00:06:23,150 --> 00:06:19,860 in that respect right brain left brain 150 00:06:25,430 --> 00:06:23,160 I'm a visual learner kinesthetic learner 151 00:06:28,129 --> 00:06:25,440 Etc and I've certainly encountered that 152 00:06:30,770 --> 00:06:28,139 a lot it's very ingrained in the system 153 00:06:32,809 --> 00:06:30,780 them in Canada I'm in Alberta now heard 154 00:06:35,150 --> 00:06:32,819 it all the time we had professional 155 00:06:36,890 --> 00:06:35,160 development about it I've had students 156 00:06:39,230 --> 00:06:36,900 come up to me and say I can't do math 157 00:06:41,029 --> 00:06:39,240 because I'm a visual learner so there's 158 00:06:43,969 --> 00:06:41,039 that harm with the box that they put 159 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:43,979 themselves into when they actually can 160 00:06:49,909 --> 00:06:46,620 do math you know with if they but also 161 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:49,919 math is superficial I I heard that a lot 162 00:06:54,290 --> 00:06:51,780 I'm a visual learner therefore I can't 163 00:06:57,409 --> 00:06:54,300 do math and I think as a special 164 00:07:00,529 --> 00:06:57,419 education teacher it gets to be a little 165 00:07:03,950 --> 00:07:00,539 murky because I do have students who 166 00:07:05,330 --> 00:07:03,960 specifically need visuals with whatever 167 00:07:07,550 --> 00:07:05,340 we're working on or things like that 168 00:07:09,529 --> 00:07:07,560 because of a specific disability and 169 00:07:12,110 --> 00:07:09,539 that's very different from a 170 00:07:13,969 --> 00:07:12,120 neurotypical learner putting themselves 171 00:07:15,770 --> 00:07:13,979 in a box like I know some of the the 172 00:07:18,230 --> 00:07:15,780 research on it that kind of debunked 173 00:07:19,969 --> 00:07:18,240 that looked at what type of learner 174 00:07:21,830 --> 00:07:19,979 people thought they were and then how 175 00:07:23,749 --> 00:07:21,840 they performed on certain tasks and it 176 00:07:26,150 --> 00:07:23,759 showed that it didn't quite match up but 177 00:07:28,070 --> 00:07:26,160 as a special ed teacher I will have a 178 00:07:29,629 --> 00:07:28,080 student who's blind so I need to do all 179 00:07:32,570 --> 00:07:29,639 auditory things they're a student who's 180 00:07:35,270 --> 00:07:32,580 deaf or things like that and we need to 181 00:07:37,430 --> 00:07:35,280 differentiate but that's not the same 182 00:07:40,550 --> 00:07:37,440 thing as labeling everybody with a 183 00:07:41,990 --> 00:07:40,560 learning style exactly and Michelle what 184 00:07:45,469 --> 00:07:42,000 have your experiences been with that one 185 00:07:48,050 --> 00:07:45,479 uh again I haven't seen it a lot in the 186 00:07:51,110 --> 00:07:48,060 high school setting but I did see it 187 00:07:53,450 --> 00:07:51,120 quite a lot in my own Children's Primary 188 00:07:55,490 --> 00:07:53,460 School setting just when I spent time in 189 00:07:58,490 --> 00:07:55,500 the classroom there as the the mum who 190 00:08:00,830 --> 00:07:58,500 helps with reading but yes again I know 191 00:08:02,990 --> 00:08:00,840 that Secondary School teachers believe 192 00:08:06,950 --> 00:08:03,000 it and I have arguments with people 193 00:08:09,290 --> 00:08:06,960 about it basically lay people who are 194 00:08:13,370 --> 00:08:09,300 not teachers tend to believe it because 195 00:08:15,710 --> 00:08:13,380 everybody knows strategies that work for 196 00:08:17,629 --> 00:08:15,720 them that they rely on when they're 197 00:08:21,529 --> 00:08:17,639 trying to learn something and people 198 00:08:24,710 --> 00:08:21,539 equate that with a learning style so you 199 00:08:26,330 --> 00:08:24,720 know my comeback is always yes because 200 00:08:30,409 --> 00:08:26,340 I'm sure you're a visual learner 201 00:08:34,089 --> 00:08:30,419 everybody is and it's because there are 202 00:08:38,269 --> 00:08:34,099 strategies rather than learning styles 203 00:08:40,909 --> 00:08:38,279 so for example I'm currently teaching 204 00:08:43,370 --> 00:08:40,919 Civics and citizenships for the first 205 00:08:45,769 --> 00:08:43,380 time so I'm having to learn more about 206 00:08:48,889 --> 00:08:45,779 the general things I know as an adult 207 00:08:51,650 --> 00:08:48,899 such as preferential and proportional 208 00:08:53,269 --> 00:08:51,660 voting that I know how to do and I have 209 00:08:56,150 --> 00:08:53,279 a general understanding of how it works 210 00:08:59,210 --> 00:08:56,160 but now that I have to explain it I have 211 00:09:01,610 --> 00:08:59,220 to understand it in better detail so 212 00:09:04,790 --> 00:09:01,620 that I can simplify it and so that I can 213 00:09:07,430 --> 00:09:04,800 answer questions on the spot gotta learn 214 00:09:10,670 --> 00:09:07,440 it and then teach it so it's interesting 215 00:09:13,550 --> 00:09:10,680 in that way that I'm noticing that there 216 00:09:16,370 --> 00:09:13,560 are certain strategies that I need to 217 00:09:18,530 --> 00:09:16,380 use to learn it and if I believed in 218 00:09:21,110 --> 00:09:18,540 learning styles I should be able to 219 00:09:24,350 --> 00:09:21,120 learn about proportional and 220 00:09:27,290 --> 00:09:24,360 preferential reading by reading the 221 00:09:29,750 --> 00:09:27,300 textbook page and I attempted to do that 222 00:09:33,889 --> 00:09:29,760 last week and I thought I'm going home 223 00:09:37,130 --> 00:09:33,899 to cry now because it was all just a big 224 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:37,140 wall of text and I thought I actually 225 00:09:41,630 --> 00:09:39,540 understand in principle what this means 226 00:09:44,690 --> 00:09:41,640 but this is just saying blah blah blah 227 00:09:45,949 --> 00:09:44,700 jargon blah blah and I thought okay I'll 228 00:09:48,470 --> 00:09:45,959 try from 229 00:09:52,370 --> 00:09:48,480 the mathematical point of view but it 230 00:09:56,030 --> 00:09:52,380 became so specific with the equations 231 00:09:58,610 --> 00:09:56,040 that I thought oh no I'm dumb I better 232 00:09:59,990 --> 00:09:58,620 resign and then I thought well that 233 00:10:02,410 --> 00:10:00,000 would be terrible there's a teacher 234 00:10:06,290 --> 00:10:02,420 shortage I better give myself some video 235 00:10:08,990 --> 00:10:06,300 tutorials because clearly I would have 236 00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:09,000 thought I was a language learning style 237 00:10:13,430 --> 00:10:11,040 person or a mathematical learning style 238 00:10:16,370 --> 00:10:13,440 both of these are failing me and I'm 239 00:10:19,850 --> 00:10:16,380 going to video tutorials and be a visual 240 00:10:22,430 --> 00:10:19,860 learner but they were beautiful and 241 00:10:26,269 --> 00:10:22,440 that's because of the visual element of 242 00:10:29,570 --> 00:10:26,279 it and the auditory element of it and 243 00:10:32,030 --> 00:10:29,580 yet that it just actually goes to show 244 00:10:34,490 --> 00:10:32,040 that I don't have one of those four 245 00:10:37,730 --> 00:10:34,500 learning styles language mathematical 246 00:10:40,970 --> 00:10:37,740 visual or auditory basically that 247 00:10:44,509 --> 00:10:40,980 material was best presented in video 248 00:10:47,389 --> 00:10:44,519 form with animated graphs with someone 249 00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:47,399 explaining it to me and some text to 250 00:10:51,230 --> 00:10:49,260 read and then when I went back and read 251 00:10:52,670 --> 00:10:51,240 the textbook I could understand it when 252 00:10:55,970 --> 00:10:52,680 I went back and looked at the equations 253 00:10:59,930 --> 00:10:55,980 I could understand it and so it was the 254 00:11:02,410 --> 00:10:59,940 method of delivery is much clearer in 255 00:11:06,230 --> 00:11:02,420 some forms than others it has actually 256 00:11:08,930 --> 00:11:06,240 very little to do with the learner you 257 00:11:13,850 --> 00:11:08,940 don't have a style in which you learn 258 00:11:15,710 --> 00:11:13,860 better the material is better taught in 259 00:11:18,110 --> 00:11:15,720 some ways than others and there was a 260 00:11:20,050 --> 00:11:18,120 lot of reinforcement going on like the I 261 00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:20,060 was just saying the video tutorial 262 00:11:27,470 --> 00:11:25,260 includes visuals animation auditory and 263 00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:27,480 it's supported by text and it had the 264 00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:29,040 maths in it so by the time you put 265 00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:32,399 everything in together it became very 266 00:11:38,389 --> 00:11:35,760 comprehensible and so I have worked out 267 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:38,399 exactly how I'm going to teach this to 268 00:11:43,069 --> 00:11:40,920 my students and I spent a day putting 269 00:11:46,430 --> 00:11:43,079 together an interactive PowerPoint that 270 00:11:49,310 --> 00:11:46,440 has key terms and definitions and 271 00:11:52,190 --> 00:11:49,320 digital flash cards to support that it 272 00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:52,200 has some of the simple equations and 273 00:11:57,710 --> 00:11:55,260 graphs to make sense of it it has the 274 00:12:00,290 --> 00:11:57,720 beautiful two minute long videos that 275 00:12:03,470 --> 00:12:00,300 just cut to the Chase and have excellent 276 00:12:07,130 --> 00:12:03,480 graphics and commentary that's in it as 277 00:12:08,690 --> 00:12:07,140 well some interactive boating ballots 278 00:12:10,490 --> 00:12:08,700 where you could actually fill in the 279 00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:10,500 numbers and vote for your candidate so 280 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:12,959 there's the Kenneth setting and then at 281 00:12:17,210 --> 00:12:14,880 the end there's some games because I 282 00:12:19,370 --> 00:12:17,220 like to gamify my classroom and that 283 00:12:22,009 --> 00:12:19,380 which is fun all another thing in itself 284 00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:22,019 some people think that it's not real 285 00:12:26,810 --> 00:12:24,600 education when there is actually 286 00:12:29,509 --> 00:12:26,820 evidence to say that there is so that's 287 00:12:32,329 --> 00:12:29,519 the touches on other myths but this is 288 00:12:34,670 --> 00:12:32,339 the way to teach things you are not 289 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:34,680 appealing to different Learners you are 290 00:12:43,550 --> 00:12:37,920 using different strategies that support 291 00:12:45,769 --> 00:12:43,560 each other to best present material and 292 00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:45,779 it won't be that one thing particularly 293 00:12:51,050 --> 00:12:48,480 the nights necessarily but by the time 294 00:12:52,970 --> 00:12:51,060 it all comes together the hope is that 295 00:12:54,769 --> 00:12:52,980 students will understand it and this is 296 00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:54,779 again what I do with language all the 297 00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:57,600 time I never present anything in just 298 00:13:02,389 --> 00:13:00,720 one way and again it's not because I 299 00:13:06,370 --> 00:13:02,399 want to make different learning styles 300 00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:06,380 it's because the combined strategies 301 00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:10,380 support each other and work together and 302 00:13:14,030 --> 00:13:12,060 emphasize different things and then the 303 00:13:15,769 --> 00:13:14,040 whole thing should theoretically fall 304 00:13:18,290 --> 00:13:15,779 into place 305 00:13:21,650 --> 00:13:18,300 yeah exactly and I think the big point 306 00:13:24,170 --> 00:13:21,660 there that is so important is that it is 307 00:13:27,889 --> 00:13:24,180 the material that dictates how you teach 308 00:13:30,829 --> 00:13:27,899 it effectively not the student in how 309 00:13:33,530 --> 00:13:30,839 they learn exactly it's it's backwards 310 00:13:35,389 --> 00:13:33,540 exactly and uh Kelly do you have 311 00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:35,399 anything to add to that 312 00:13:42,050 --> 00:13:39,360 I was just thinking about like teacher 313 00:13:46,910 --> 00:13:42,060 preparation programs and I'm curious 314 00:13:49,790 --> 00:13:46,920 about your experiences and how much your 315 00:13:52,009 --> 00:13:49,800 education focused on 316 00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:52,019 making you an expert in your content 317 00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:54,060 area versus making you an expert on 318 00:13:59,210 --> 00:13:56,639 teaching because I think with a lot of 319 00:14:03,410 --> 00:13:59,220 programs there's so much to cram into 320 00:14:05,930 --> 00:14:03,420 four years of college to prepare you and 321 00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:05,940 I so I went to school for music 322 00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:10,680 education and so I had to learn how to 323 00:14:16,730 --> 00:14:14,220 teach music for kindergarten through 324 00:14:20,750 --> 00:14:16,740 12th grade bands Orchestra chorus 325 00:14:24,410 --> 00:14:20,760 General music so I spent so many hours 326 00:14:25,730 --> 00:14:24,420 of classes learning how to play all of 327 00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:25,740 the band instruments and orchestra 328 00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:28,200 instruments and learning so many 329 00:14:34,370 --> 00:14:31,380 different aspects of it that there's not 330 00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:34,380 always a ton of time for evidence-based 331 00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:36,480 teaching instruction 332 00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:37,860 um and I think I got a lot of it I think 333 00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,839 I was really lucky I had a professor who 334 00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:42,000 was really active in research in music 335 00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:44,880 education so I did get a lot of 336 00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:47,760 instruction in best practices and 337 00:14:51,889 --> 00:14:49,440 evidence-based strategies at the 338 00:14:54,110 --> 00:14:51,899 underground red level but now I'm not 339 00:14:57,230 --> 00:14:54,120 teaching music and that's a whole other 340 00:14:59,389 --> 00:14:57,240 story but I just wondered what kind of 341 00:15:02,090 --> 00:14:59,399 preparation you guys got in terms of 342 00:15:03,829 --> 00:15:02,100 teaching strategies versus your content 343 00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:03,839 areas yeah that's a good great question 344 00:15:10,189 --> 00:15:06,540 I can speak to that I did a four-year 345 00:15:13,129 --> 00:15:10,199 math major so I really just had one year 346 00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:13,139 of Education in my fifth year and I did 347 00:15:17,870 --> 00:15:15,360 transfer in in third year so I had to do 348 00:15:19,730 --> 00:15:17,880 a practicum at the end of every year did 349 00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:19,740 I learn anything did I have courses no 350 00:15:24,350 --> 00:15:21,600 we just got kind of thrown in into 351 00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:24,360 teaching and we learned from teachers 352 00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:26,880 who had experience until my fifth year 353 00:15:32,930 --> 00:15:30,300 when we did have some how to teach 354 00:15:36,170 --> 00:15:32,940 courses for sure but it was mostly 355 00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,180 around discipline it was not around 356 00:15:42,290 --> 00:15:38,399 learning styles I didn't get the 357 00:15:45,650 --> 00:15:42,300 brain left brain I didn't get any of 358 00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:45,660 that until I was a full-time teacher and 359 00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:48,180 we went to professional developments 360 00:15:54,170 --> 00:15:51,720 I think a lot of Education 361 00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:54,180 comes from learning from experienced 362 00:15:59,210 --> 00:15:57,360 teachers like a lot of my like a lot of 363 00:16:01,069 --> 00:15:59,220 how I learned how to teach was having 364 00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:01,079 practicum placements and things like 365 00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:04,320 that and so you get these myths passed 366 00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:06,959 down without anything to kind of stop 367 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:09,360 them exactly so I think that's kind of a 368 00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:10,560 lot of the reason that that's 369 00:16:15,889 --> 00:16:13,440 perpetuated in education but I think 370 00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:15,899 also as Adrian was saying some of the 371 00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:18,240 professional development you get as a 372 00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:21,839 teacher is just from Consultants now 373 00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:24,720 they're peddling their own thing and 374 00:16:29,389 --> 00:16:27,660 either your curriculum coordinator at 375 00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:29,399 your school loves what they're peddling 376 00:16:34,129 --> 00:16:31,260 with because due to their own personal 377 00:16:37,129 --> 00:16:34,139 preference or they don't so you get some 378 00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:37,139 you can get really anybody come and 379 00:16:41,629 --> 00:16:39,420 speak to you in your professional 380 00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:41,639 development that is part of the problem 381 00:16:46,430 --> 00:16:44,399 it's their personal Consultants with 382 00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,440 their own business pushing their own 383 00:16:50,509 --> 00:16:48,959 agenda some of the time it's you know 384 00:16:53,449 --> 00:16:50,519 some of the time not it depends where 385 00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:53,459 they come from but there's no guarantees 386 00:16:56,590 --> 00:16:55,320 that you're getting the right 387 00:16:59,930 --> 00:16:56,600 information 388 00:17:03,769 --> 00:16:59,940 my teaching experience was you know I 389 00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:03,779 did my three years Bachelor of Arts and 390 00:17:10,490 --> 00:17:05,760 then I did my one year of teaching and 391 00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:10,500 in Japanese the The Dilemma always is do 392 00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:12,360 you teach grammar or do you teach 393 00:17:19,730 --> 00:17:16,260 holistically and this I find is probably 394 00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:19,740 the most prevalent problem in education 395 00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,079 is that there's all these false 396 00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:25,199 dichotomies right too many things 397 00:17:30,770 --> 00:17:28,140 entered as a false dichotomy it has to 398 00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:30,780 be one or the other instead of it 399 00:17:37,310 --> 00:17:34,140 you know the mnemonics and uh phonetics 400 00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:37,320 sorry and sight reading debate is it 401 00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:39,480 should we be teaching phonetics should 402 00:17:46,970 --> 00:17:42,660 we be learning whole words on site well 403 00:17:49,610 --> 00:17:46,980 yes yes both yes and Mathematics the 404 00:17:51,049 --> 00:17:49,620 false dichotomy all the time or in 405 00:17:52,610 --> 00:17:51,059 thinking about coming to talk to you 406 00:17:54,650 --> 00:17:52,620 guys about using evidence-based 407 00:17:57,890 --> 00:17:54,660 practices and teaching I was thinking 408 00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:57,900 about why we don't see as much of 409 00:18:03,130 --> 00:18:00,240 evidence-based practices in teaching and 410 00:18:06,650 --> 00:18:03,140 I'm curious as to your experiences 411 00:18:10,430 --> 00:18:06,660 outside of the US because I think a lot 412 00:18:13,490 --> 00:18:10,440 of it has to do with time on yes at 413 00:18:16,909 --> 00:18:13,500 least on my end because teachers barely 414 00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:16,919 have the time to get their job done and 415 00:18:21,169 --> 00:18:19,440 so to keep up with the latest research 416 00:18:24,830 --> 00:18:21,179 and things like that it's just 417 00:18:28,190 --> 00:18:24,840 impossible like I know for us I have 45 418 00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:28,200 minutes of planning time a day and half 419 00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:30,240 of that is eaten up by meetings and 420 00:18:34,909 --> 00:18:32,940 things like that that I end up taking a 421 00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:34,919 lot of my work home as I know most 422 00:18:38,810 --> 00:18:36,600 teachers in the US do and I'm just 423 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:38,820 curious as to your experiences with that 424 00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:41,760 I think for me definitely it was a huge 425 00:18:45,770 --> 00:18:44,640 Factor time is so precious and you're 426 00:18:47,570 --> 00:18:45,780 barely able when you're working 427 00:18:49,549 --> 00:18:47,580 full-time especially 428 00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:49,559 you're barely able to keep your head 429 00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:51,780 above water just keeping up with 430 00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:53,640 teaching the curriculum and teaching 431 00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,160 what you need to do and that was one of 432 00:19:01,390 --> 00:18:58,799 the things that I was very grateful for 433 00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:01,400 when I went to part-time 434 00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:04,679 is I've now had experts who were 435 00:19:10,510 --> 00:19:07,320 neurologists psychiatrists Etc that I 436 00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:10,520 could work with with regards to my kids 437 00:19:16,930 --> 00:19:13,860 and I also became an in-service provider 438 00:19:20,330 --> 00:19:16,940 so I would go into schools and teach the 439 00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:20,340 evidence-based Practice coming down from 440 00:19:25,789 --> 00:19:22,620 neurologists psychiatrists Etc and the 441 00:19:28,669 --> 00:19:25,799 studies that they had done but getting 442 00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:28,679 into schools is really really hard so we 443 00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:30,360 have this amazing program through the 444 00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:32,880 Toretto CD Alberta Network which we have 445 00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:34,799 a free program we will go into schools 446 00:19:40,070 --> 00:19:37,500 and teach teachers time is such a huge 447 00:19:41,690 --> 00:19:40,080 issue we can't get into schools so 448 00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:41,700 that's a big disconnect and I think 449 00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:42,960 that's something that needs to change 450 00:19:48,169 --> 00:19:46,260 and then even if teachers even if a 451 00:19:50,450 --> 00:19:48,179 school manages to carve out the time for 452 00:19:52,669 --> 00:19:50,460 a great program like that for teachers 453 00:19:54,590 --> 00:19:52,679 to implement it that means redoing all 454 00:19:56,690 --> 00:19:54,600 of their plans and that requires a lot 455 00:19:58,010 --> 00:19:56,700 of time so exactly even if you're 456 00:20:00,110 --> 00:19:58,020 getting the evidence-based practices 457 00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:00,120 there it takes a lot to actually get 458 00:20:04,610 --> 00:20:02,400 them into the classroom and also 459 00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:04,620 convincing the teachers that these 460 00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:07,679 practices that help kids with ADHD or 461 00:20:12,289 --> 00:20:10,260 OCD or you know obsessive-compulsive 462 00:20:14,090 --> 00:20:12,299 disorder or Tourette Syndrome or anxiety 463 00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:14,100 generalized anxiety 464 00:20:18,350 --> 00:20:16,320 all these these strategies actually help 465 00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:18,360 all students and get getting them to be 466 00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:21,120 convinced of that as well that if they 467 00:20:24,830 --> 00:20:22,559 do Implement these changes it makes 468 00:20:27,529 --> 00:20:24,840 their job easier but it does it takes 469 00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:27,539 time you have to invest time in in 470 00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:30,240 change and learning about it and it's 471 00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:32,220 not easy to do and it's easier to fall 472 00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:34,080 back into habits right that you've done 473 00:20:38,230 --> 00:20:35,520 yeah for years 474 00:20:41,390 --> 00:20:38,240 and it takes a lot of buy-in too which 475 00:20:43,010 --> 00:20:41,400 is easier said than done because you'll 476 00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:43,020 have I see a lot of confirmation bias 477 00:20:48,590 --> 00:20:45,900 with that really so you'll have this new 478 00:20:50,029 --> 00:20:48,600 and evidence-based practice you'll get 479 00:20:51,710 --> 00:20:50,039 this professional development on it 480 00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:51,720 teachers will try it for a couple of 481 00:20:56,210 --> 00:20:53,700 days say oh it doesn't work and then 482 00:20:58,430 --> 00:20:56,220 give up on it whereas if you really 483 00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:58,440 fully committed to it you'd be able to 484 00:21:04,610 --> 00:21:01,200 see those differences but in months it's 485 00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:04,620 not faithful yeah and it does and that's 486 00:21:07,730 --> 00:21:06,000 one of the things I've always said when 487 00:21:09,289 --> 00:21:07,740 I go into classrooms is this is 488 00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:09,299 something that's going to take months 489 00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:12,000 and maybe even years to see the evidence 490 00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:14,100 of and that's that's hard for teachers 491 00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:15,720 to buy into when they're dealing minute 492 00:21:22,370 --> 00:21:18,240 by minute hour by hour day by day right 493 00:21:26,570 --> 00:21:22,380 it's tough to get that buy-in as you say 494 00:21:29,810 --> 00:21:26,580 the lightest for us is what we call hits 495 00:21:33,230 --> 00:21:29,820 briefly explain what that is it's 496 00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:33,240 basically this is what's currently in 497 00:21:38,029 --> 00:21:35,760 Australian school so and I'm going to 498 00:21:40,909 --> 00:21:38,039 quote here hits have emerged from the 499 00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:40,919 findings of tens of thousands of studies 500 00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:43,500 on what has worked in classrooms across 501 00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:46,200 Australia and the world although hits 502 00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:49,980 are highly effective teaching strategies 503 00:21:54,529 --> 00:21:52,020 for increasing student learning they do 504 00:21:57,409 --> 00:21:54,539 not provide a complete framework but 505 00:22:01,130 --> 00:21:57,419 they do give us 10 kind of strategies 506 00:22:04,549 --> 00:22:01,140 and heat stands for high impact teaching 507 00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:04,559 strategies and interestingly they are 508 00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:07,500 mostly about direct instruction direct 509 00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:12,000 instruction is back explicit instruction 510 00:22:20,990 --> 00:22:16,860 is back inquiry learning largely gone 511 00:22:24,590 --> 00:22:21,000 down to a task rather than a model 512 00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:24,600 so it's yeah they basically teaches 513 00:22:33,049 --> 00:22:27,919 teaching and teacher-centered teaching 514 00:22:35,690 --> 00:22:33,059 seems to be backed by these studies and 515 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:35,700 these meta-analysis and think it's you 516 00:22:40,430 --> 00:22:37,860 know it's all dressed up in edges speak 517 00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:40,440 through we don't do examples anymore we 518 00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:43,740 do work examples you know which means go 519 00:22:49,490 --> 00:22:45,360 through it step by step on the board so 520 00:22:52,210 --> 00:22:49,500 it's a worked example multiple exposures 521 00:22:55,310 --> 00:22:52,220 show them in different ways 522 00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,320 structuring lessons kind of obvious that 523 00:23:00,649 --> 00:22:57,360 a better structured lesson is going to 524 00:23:03,890 --> 00:23:00,659 work better explicit teaching but 525 00:23:06,529 --> 00:23:03,900 they're all these basic things that are 526 00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:06,539 totally back see it feels like we're 527 00:23:10,909 --> 00:23:08,760 going full circle yeah don't give 528 00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:10,919 feedback about everything it becomes 529 00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:14,280 meaningless give good thorough feedback 530 00:23:19,490 --> 00:23:17,580 about some things metacognition is still 531 00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:19,500 around there's still quite a big focus 532 00:23:24,890 --> 00:23:22,260 on metacognitive strategies teaching 533 00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:24,900 students to think about their thinking 534 00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:27,720 but yeah all this time later and this 535 00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:30,240 time you know backed by thousands of 536 00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:32,400 studies or tens of thousands of studies 537 00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:35,220 that as they say seem we seem to be 538 00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:38,640 going back to a teacher dented approach 539 00:23:44,990 --> 00:23:41,880 rather than inquiry learning I don't 540 00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:45,000 know how much evidence inquiry learning 541 00:23:49,669 --> 00:23:47,820 was supposed to have for it but 542 00:23:52,430 --> 00:23:49,679 so the only other thing that I really 543 00:23:54,890 --> 00:23:52,440 wanted to talk about is myths about 544 00:23:57,590 --> 00:23:54,900 homework because when I was going 545 00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:57,600 through University and then I was in my 546 00:24:03,049 --> 00:24:00,480 fifth year my one year of Education 547 00:24:06,350 --> 00:24:03,059 they talk quite a bit about homework and 548 00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:06,360 they actually said that in in Canada 549 00:24:10,730 --> 00:24:08,159 here or at least at University of 550 00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:10,740 British Columbia that homework at the 551 00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:13,320 lower levels was not it's not valuable 552 00:24:19,310 --> 00:24:16,620 it can detract from students enthusiasm 553 00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:19,320 of school etc etc and it was only in the 554 00:24:22,669 --> 00:24:21,000 higher grades that it becomes more 555 00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:22,679 important but it was really conditional 556 00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:25,020 on upon the student that was what I 557 00:24:29,810 --> 00:24:27,480 remember learning could be wrong but 558 00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:29,820 that's that was sort of my takeaway and 559 00:24:35,330 --> 00:24:32,400 I have a niece and nephew who were 560 00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:35,340 living in Arizona when I was right in 561 00:24:38,690 --> 00:24:36,960 the middle of my teaching career and 562 00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:38,700 they were getting homework in 563 00:24:44,450 --> 00:24:41,039 kindergarten and it was like an hour of 564 00:24:47,210 --> 00:24:44,460 homework a day in kindergarten and I 565 00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:47,220 remember them asking is this normal and 566 00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:49,320 I was quite horrified to be quite honest 567 00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,320 and and then over the years I've had a 568 00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:54,240 lot of pressure from parents you know 569 00:24:56,930 --> 00:24:55,440 what parent-teacher interviews they 570 00:24:58,010 --> 00:24:56,940 would come and say how come my students 571 00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:58,020 aren't getting this much homework 572 00:25:00,649 --> 00:25:00,000 they're not doing any math at home etc 573 00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:00,659 etc 574 00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:02,700 and I would try to explain to them look 575 00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:05,400 they're they've got 86 percent you know 576 00:25:08,510 --> 00:25:07,020 they're they're doing fine they don't 577 00:25:10,430 --> 00:25:08,520 need to be doing the homework they're 578 00:25:13,070 --> 00:25:10,440 doing the work in class obviously 579 00:25:15,770 --> 00:25:13,080 they're fine another student who wasn't 580 00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:15,780 passing I might recommend doing some 581 00:25:20,390 --> 00:25:17,640 homework with especially in the higher 582 00:25:23,510 --> 00:25:20,400 grades so it was really conditional upon 583 00:25:26,450 --> 00:25:23,520 the student and I learned as well I do 584 00:25:29,690 --> 00:25:26,460 remember in University being told don't 585 00:25:31,310 --> 00:25:29,700 over homework but give a lot of the same 586 00:25:33,769 --> 00:25:31,320 type of question because you're going to 587 00:25:36,769 --> 00:25:33,779 turn the kids off now if they need the 588 00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:36,779 extra practice that's fine but for most 589 00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:38,640 students they shouldn't have to do all 590 00:25:44,149 --> 00:25:40,620 the questions like every single question 591 00:25:46,970 --> 00:25:44,159 in a textbook Etc but I was astounded to 592 00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:46,980 find out as my niece and nephew went 593 00:25:52,130 --> 00:25:49,679 through school that there were teachers 594 00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:52,140 who did that gave just homework for the 595 00:25:56,990 --> 00:25:54,600 sake of homework and I would even hear 596 00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:57,000 people at professional developments 597 00:26:02,149 --> 00:26:00,000 occasionally that would say yes homework 598 00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:02,159 builds character after homework builds 599 00:26:06,529 --> 00:26:04,740 good work habits at home homework does 600 00:26:09,049 --> 00:26:06,539 all these things and I was really 601 00:26:10,970 --> 00:26:09,059 grateful to my son Graham my oldest son 602 00:26:13,130 --> 00:26:10,980 he when he was in university he really 603 00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:13,140 got into the skeptical movement and kind 604 00:26:16,909 --> 00:26:15,120 of introduced me to it and he bought me 605 00:26:19,789 --> 00:26:16,919 this book called The Homework myth and 606 00:26:22,430 --> 00:26:19,799 it was by Alfie Cohn and it was an 607 00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:22,440 amazing book because it went through and 608 00:26:26,810 --> 00:26:24,900 said people will say you know and he 609 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:26,820 would name the people and he would say 610 00:26:31,549 --> 00:26:29,460 they would say well studies show that 611 00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:31,559 this many hours of homework per grade 612 00:26:36,289 --> 00:26:33,900 are essential to their development in 613 00:26:38,269 --> 00:26:36,299 the future and he would look up the 614 00:26:40,430 --> 00:26:38,279 study and actually read it and it would 615 00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:40,440 say the exact opposite of what this 616 00:26:45,230 --> 00:26:43,440 person was saying or they had just 617 00:26:47,450 --> 00:26:45,240 misunderstood it and it actually said 618 00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:47,460 the other thing as well so they you know 619 00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:50,220 they may have just misread it misread a 620 00:26:54,529 --> 00:26:52,559 line kept out a word that kind of thing 621 00:26:56,409 --> 00:26:54,539 it was astounding to me that people 622 00:26:58,850 --> 00:26:56,419 would say things like studies show 623 00:27:01,210 --> 00:26:58,860 without actually knowing the study I 624 00:27:03,950 --> 00:27:01,220 think that was really eye-opening to me 625 00:27:05,630 --> 00:27:03,960 and what about you guys how did you find 626 00:27:08,210 --> 00:27:05,640 it Kelly and let's start with the you 627 00:27:09,649 --> 00:27:08,220 asking so I was talking about Arizona 628 00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:09,659 well 629 00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:14,400 I think I am not necessarily a good 630 00:27:18,350 --> 00:27:16,080 person to speak on this because my 631 00:27:19,730 --> 00:27:18,360 students don't have homework because I 632 00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:19,740 work with students with severe multiple 633 00:27:23,690 --> 00:27:22,200 disabilities I probably don't have an 634 00:27:24,950 --> 00:27:23,700 informed opinion on that so I'll pass 635 00:27:26,990 --> 00:27:24,960 what about when you were going through 636 00:27:30,049 --> 00:27:27,000 school growing up oh going through 637 00:27:32,210 --> 00:27:30,059 school I so I was the student who took 638 00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:32,220 all of the AP classes and put everything 639 00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:34,320 on my plate but I was also the student 640 00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:35,700 who didn't do the homework until the 641 00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:38,480 night before so quite a few all-nighters 642 00:27:43,310 --> 00:27:41,460 learns actually just last year that I 643 00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:43,320 have ADHD so all of that all of a sudden 644 00:27:45,490 --> 00:27:44,940 made sense 645 00:27:48,289 --> 00:27:45,500 um 646 00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:48,299 that kind of feeds into this homework 647 00:27:53,870 --> 00:27:51,120 thing though homework can make some of 648 00:27:57,070 --> 00:27:53,880 those issues so much more pronounced 649 00:27:59,210 --> 00:27:57,080 like as someone with ADHD you give me 650 00:28:00,409 --> 00:27:59,220 homework that I need to do over the 651 00:28:01,850 --> 00:28:00,419 course of a week and I'm doing it the 652 00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:01,860 night before and then I'm not sleeping 653 00:28:06,649 --> 00:28:03,659 and I'm not being as effective a learner 654 00:28:08,990 --> 00:28:06,659 as I can be or I'm doing my homework in 655 00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:09,000 the class before it's due and then I'm 656 00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:10,559 not paying attention mentioned in that 657 00:28:16,190 --> 00:28:13,860 class I think it can cause a lot more 658 00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:16,200 issues than it solves and then on top of 659 00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:18,240 that you have 660 00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:20,640 homework especially at younger grades 661 00:28:25,549 --> 00:28:23,760 can exacerbate disparities among 662 00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:25,559 students because if you have students 663 00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:28,559 whose parents are home then they're 664 00:28:31,850 --> 00:28:30,000 going to be able to help them with the 665 00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:31,860 homework and you know get them through 666 00:28:35,149 --> 00:28:33,720 it meanwhile you might have students who 667 00:28:37,730 --> 00:28:35,159 don't have somebody at home who can help 668 00:28:39,049 --> 00:28:37,740 them or getting to the older grades you 669 00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:39,059 might have students who have to go to 670 00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:40,799 work after school right and so then 671 00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:42,840 that's exacerbating things or taking 672 00:28:49,970 --> 00:28:46,500 care of a sibling and that just kind of 673 00:28:52,669 --> 00:28:49,980 fuels those disparities yeah about 20 674 00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:52,679 years ago we had an official homework 675 00:28:59,269 --> 00:28:56,100 policy at my school and from memory and 676 00:29:03,649 --> 00:28:59,279 again unreliable after 20 years but we 677 00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:03,659 had this policy due to again the studies 678 00:29:08,870 --> 00:29:06,720 show Factor without ever seeing the 679 00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:08,880 studies but it became part of the 680 00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:11,279 students planner which is really just a 681 00:29:18,169 --> 00:29:14,880 diary and there's a page dedicated to it 682 00:29:21,230 --> 00:29:18,179 and honestly we had to set a certain 683 00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:21,240 amount of homework per week you know in 684 00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:23,820 accordance with these studies and I 685 00:29:28,850 --> 00:29:26,640 artificially did so I gave them extra 686 00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:28,860 worksheets they didn't need to do and 687 00:29:33,409 --> 00:29:30,600 things like that just to make these 688 00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:33,419 quotas you know wow and then I tried to 689 00:29:38,750 --> 00:29:36,240 make it meaningful but it you can't if 690 00:29:41,210 --> 00:29:38,760 you don't need it right you know and 691 00:29:44,269 --> 00:29:41,220 you're just doing it to achieve a set 692 00:29:47,149 --> 00:29:44,279 number of hours I think it's 1.5 hours a 693 00:29:48,769 --> 00:29:47,159 week for every subject and you know 694 00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:48,779 sometimes it just wasn't anything much 695 00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:50,340 that week and you'd have to make up 696 00:29:55,310 --> 00:29:51,919 something they didn't really need to do 697 00:29:58,010 --> 00:29:55,320 so that seems though to have been long 698 00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:58,020 gone I haven't heard anything about the 699 00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:01,679 homework policy for hours per week or 700 00:30:07,549 --> 00:30:03,600 night they should be working in 701 00:30:12,049 --> 00:30:07,559 absolutely ages and now I set meaningful 702 00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:12,059 homework as the need arises or stuff 703 00:30:17,450 --> 00:30:14,820 that is just better done at home for 704 00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:17,460 example learning to write uh Japanese 705 00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:19,980 car characters in the senior years where 706 00:30:25,430 --> 00:30:23,100 they have to learn 200 characters it's 707 00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:25,440 really not a good use of class time 708 00:30:31,250 --> 00:30:27,840 because it's just learned sitting out 709 00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:31,260 writing out the characters 20 plus times 710 00:30:37,070 --> 00:30:34,500 you know that takes half an hour 711 00:30:42,529 --> 00:30:37,080 so but it is a nice relaxing thing to do 712 00:30:45,169 --> 00:30:42,539 once a week never just for the sake of a 713 00:30:47,389 --> 00:30:45,179 certain number of hours is necessary for 714 00:30:49,549 --> 00:30:47,399 students to progress 715 00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:49,559 I love the the comment that you made 716 00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:51,120 which was the meaningful I think 717 00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:53,039 meaningful homework is so important 718 00:30:57,529 --> 00:30:55,380 because if it's not meaningful it 719 00:30:59,810 --> 00:30:57,539 becomes a burden for sure and it's 720 00:31:02,210 --> 00:30:59,820 interesting it twigged a memory in me I 721 00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:02,220 do remember there was a homework policy 722 00:31:07,549 --> 00:31:05,460 that was in their agendas in my first 723 00:31:10,430 --> 00:31:07,559 school that I taught over 30 years ago 724 00:31:14,029 --> 00:31:10,440 not so long ago now but if my memory is 725 00:31:17,510 --> 00:31:14,039 correct it said this is a guideline only 726 00:31:19,549 --> 00:31:17,520 I as a teacher did not have to make sure 727 00:31:21,850 --> 00:31:19,559 that my students were assigned a certain 728 00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:21,860 amount like you described I never 729 00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:26,159 experienced that I'm glad that's gone 730 00:31:31,730 --> 00:31:29,340 I just wanted to raise growth mindset 731 00:31:34,430 --> 00:31:31,740 versus fixed mindset which is the 732 00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:34,440 current Buzz thing are you getting that 733 00:31:40,190 --> 00:31:37,919 Cali yep yeah I'm out of the education 734 00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:40,200 system so why would you know it's it's 735 00:31:47,330 --> 00:31:43,220 the hot hot one at the moment 736 00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:47,340 as soon as I heard it I just shuddered 737 00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:49,679 and I thought oh no here comes another 738 00:31:55,850 --> 00:31:51,960 Guru 739 00:31:58,850 --> 00:31:55,860 um growth mindset versus fixed mindset 740 00:32:00,889 --> 00:31:58,860 is just creeping into everything in fact 741 00:32:03,470 --> 00:32:00,899 we are changing textbooks and Humanities 742 00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:03,480 and it was in the textbook in the 743 00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:04,799 teacher's book 744 00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:07,740 and I thought oh no this is just 745 00:32:14,210 --> 00:32:11,460 becoming gospel as things do whereas 746 00:32:17,810 --> 00:32:14,220 it's actually unproven it comes down to 747 00:32:20,769 --> 00:32:17,820 one person in the US and their theory 748 00:32:23,389 --> 00:32:20,779 that they've promoted heavily it's not 749 00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:23,399 evidence-based it's definitely not set 750 00:32:28,730 --> 00:32:26,640 of science but schools are taking it up 751 00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:28,740 at an alarming rate and we have to teach 752 00:32:34,730 --> 00:32:31,500 it in our end of year program for um 753 00:32:36,529 --> 00:32:34,740 well-being now and yeah very 754 00:32:39,409 --> 00:32:36,539 uncomfortable with it I always put the 755 00:32:42,350 --> 00:32:39,419 disclaimer in so excuse that this is not 756 00:32:46,010 --> 00:32:42,360 settled science you might find some of 757 00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:46,020 these useful as ticks but I refuse to 758 00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:48,840 say that it's categorically a thing so 759 00:32:54,769 --> 00:32:51,360 what exactly is growth mindset versus 760 00:32:58,010 --> 00:32:54,779 fixed mindset yeah well growth if you 761 00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:58,020 have a growth mindset apparently you 762 00:33:02,930 --> 00:33:00,720 believe you can do things 763 00:33:06,049 --> 00:33:02,940 sounds like the power of positive 764 00:33:08,450 --> 00:33:06,059 thinking and if you have a I fixed 765 00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:08,460 mindset you believe that your abilities 766 00:33:15,049 --> 00:33:11,760 are fixed and that you can't improve 767 00:33:18,110 --> 00:33:15,059 sounds like learning styles it's like it 768 00:33:20,269 --> 00:33:18,120 it's not about the need to practice and 769 00:33:22,370 --> 00:33:20,279 like I think it's generally accepted by 770 00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:22,380 everyone that you practice a skill to 771 00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:24,480 get better at it I don't even think we 772 00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:26,460 need studies to show you that and that 773 00:33:31,009 --> 00:33:29,519 if you don't give something a go of 774 00:33:32,690 --> 00:33:31,019 course you can't really know until 775 00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:32,700 you've tried a lot of things and of 776 00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:34,080 course you should try and you should 777 00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:36,000 persist for a while and you should show 778 00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:38,820 resilience but this whole thing that if 779 00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:41,940 you have this mindset you will succeed 780 00:33:46,190 --> 00:33:44,340 and if you don't you won't so you better 781 00:33:49,909 --> 00:33:46,200 break out of that one 782 00:33:52,669 --> 00:33:49,919 just puts too much to me it's again it's 783 00:33:55,549 --> 00:33:52,679 the false dichotomy you know we all 784 00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:55,559 believe we can do some things well and 785 00:34:00,289 --> 00:33:58,320 others not well we all believe that we 786 00:34:03,470 --> 00:34:00,299 all also believe that we can improve 787 00:34:06,889 --> 00:34:03,480 with practice but I also believe we know 788 00:34:09,109 --> 00:34:06,899 our limits without being told no no 789 00:34:11,389 --> 00:34:09,119 that's just a fixed mindset that you 790 00:34:14,089 --> 00:34:11,399 need to overcome and I think it's not 791 00:34:16,849 --> 00:34:14,099 really fair to birds in that because 792 00:34:19,609 --> 00:34:16,859 students like accusing them blaming the 793 00:34:22,010 --> 00:34:19,619 victims yeah it's using them of their 794 00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:22,020 mindset holding them back instead of 795 00:34:28,030 --> 00:34:25,200 focusing on the skills that they need 796 00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:28,040 you know it's very Law of Attraction 797 00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:31,020 yeah so if you fail it's your fault 798 00:34:36,109 --> 00:34:32,399 because you didn't have the right 799 00:34:38,270 --> 00:34:36,119 mindset yeah very toxic positivity like 800 00:34:42,409 --> 00:34:38,280 you just need to say I can do it all the 801 00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:42,419 time yeah so it bothers me that it's 802 00:34:47,389 --> 00:34:44,820 presented as a dichotomy even though 803 00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:47,399 that could never be and of course that's 804 00:34:53,869 --> 00:34:50,879 taking it to its extremes but still it 805 00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:53,879 just it makes me uncomfortable to even 806 00:35:00,109 --> 00:34:57,119 talk about it as a dichotomy and I I 807 00:35:02,210 --> 00:35:00,119 think it does actually while all the 808 00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:02,220 intentions are wonderful as you know 809 00:35:09,950 --> 00:35:05,780 positive is it can have some detrimental 810 00:35:13,550 --> 00:35:09,960 aspects I personally believe and worst 811 00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:13,560 of all it has no evidence 812 00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:15,839 first thing I did was look it up what's 813 00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:17,640 the evidence fixed mindset and growth 814 00:35:22,430 --> 00:35:20,880 mindset and there is none haven't been 815 00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:22,440 studies if someone's personal 816 00:35:27,470 --> 00:35:25,680 observation it's a guru thing again and 817 00:35:30,410 --> 00:35:27,480 their personal observations they haven't 818 00:35:34,130 --> 00:35:30,420 been studies there's nothing to back it 819 00:35:37,550 --> 00:35:34,140 up and yet it's been promoted now in 820 00:35:38,930 --> 00:35:37,560 swallows and I think a lot of that a lot 821 00:35:42,170 --> 00:35:38,940 of the pseudoscience we've talked about 822 00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:42,180 in general goes to like this 823 00:35:47,210 --> 00:35:45,119 idea of what feels right that that feels 824 00:35:48,770 --> 00:35:47,220 like a really good idea and that feels 825 00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:48,780 like what we should be doing oh learning 826 00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:50,880 styles I feel like I learn better from 827 00:35:57,410 --> 00:35:54,480 this and once it feels right we use our 828 00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:57,420 motivated reasoning to to justify it or 829 00:36:02,810 --> 00:35:59,520 we can find a few studies and cherry 830 00:36:05,630 --> 00:36:02,820 pick things that justify it I think also 831 00:36:07,730 --> 00:36:05,640 people might look at us talking about 832 00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:07,740 how these things are not backed by 833 00:36:12,290 --> 00:36:10,200 evidence as us completely bashing it and 834 00:36:14,510 --> 00:36:12,300 saying there's no value in it and that 835 00:36:16,010 --> 00:36:14,520 it's absolutely horrible we're not 836 00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:16,020 saying that it's horrible but we're 837 00:36:19,730 --> 00:36:17,400 saying that we want to do things that 838 00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:19,740 are backed by evidence and when 839 00:36:24,290 --> 00:36:21,119 something claims to be backed by 840 00:36:26,990 --> 00:36:24,300 evidence and it's not it's really hard 841 00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:27,000 to know how we should be approaching 842 00:36:30,349 --> 00:36:28,320 things 843 00:36:32,329 --> 00:36:30,359 I I think that's just kind of how 844 00:36:35,109 --> 00:36:32,339 Skeptics are viewed in general is like 845 00:36:38,089 --> 00:36:35,119 as the negatron who's bashing everything 846 00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:38,099 and that's not the intention the 847 00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:39,599 intention is I want to find the things 848 00:36:44,510 --> 00:36:41,760 that I should be doing but there's just 849 00:36:46,490 --> 00:36:44,520 mountains and mountains of woo around 850 00:36:48,410 --> 00:36:46,500 all of this and it makes it really hard 851 00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:48,420 to find out what the science actually 852 00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:52,320 says yeah exactly yeah and another thing 853 00:36:56,690 --> 00:36:53,820 is I think 854 00:36:58,250 --> 00:36:56,700 a lot of that positive thinking you 855 00:37:00,170 --> 00:36:58,260 wouldn't want to say a student can't do 856 00:37:01,670 --> 00:37:00,180 something and that's entirely fine if 857 00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:01,680 that's something a student is interested 858 00:37:06,530 --> 00:37:04,079 in and they want to do like students can 859 00:37:09,109 --> 00:37:06,540 do anything as somebody who recently 860 00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:09,119 realized I had ADHD I realized that a 861 00:37:12,530 --> 00:37:11,040 lot of the things that I was successful 862 00:37:15,470 --> 00:37:12,540 in were the things I was interested in 863 00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:15,480 but to say that this positive thinking 864 00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:17,760 is gonna make the student able to do 865 00:37:23,930 --> 00:37:20,760 this thing do they even want to 866 00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:23,940 yeah and just trying to kind of force 867 00:37:28,069 --> 00:37:26,460 that is going to be harmful to the 868 00:37:31,970 --> 00:37:28,079 student 869 00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:31,980 this idea of positive mindset seems to 870 00:37:37,310 --> 00:37:34,680 be pretty common in all of our culture 871 00:37:40,430 --> 00:37:37,320 if we believe we can do it we can do it 872 00:37:42,589 --> 00:37:40,440 you hear that over and over again we see 873 00:37:45,349 --> 00:37:42,599 it from movie stars we see it with 874 00:37:47,450 --> 00:37:45,359 musicians athletes they say don't give 875 00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:47,460 up on your dream just think positively 876 00:37:53,390 --> 00:37:50,160 think you can do it so this is something 877 00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,400 very ingrained in our culture which I 878 00:37:58,010 --> 00:37:56,160 think as you said Kelly can be harmful 879 00:38:00,349 --> 00:37:58,020 because there's very high expectations 880 00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:00,359 that most people can't meet it's just 881 00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:01,920 not going to happen 882 00:38:07,609 --> 00:38:04,500 but also I think it's to do with we now 883 00:38:10,370 --> 00:38:07,619 know about you know brain plasticity 884 00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:10,380 so now that we know that and that we 885 00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:12,119 that's you know spawn things like 886 00:38:19,310 --> 00:38:15,540 lifelong learning and brain plasticity 887 00:38:21,890 --> 00:38:19,320 is real yeah but uh you know some of the 888 00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:21,900 things that it generates maybe you know 889 00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:24,240 other theories associated with that I 890 00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:25,440 don't know 891 00:38:31,010 --> 00:38:29,280 um I'm waiting to see what the size is 892 00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:31,020 I'm not going to say it's not real 893 00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:33,180 growth perfect versus picks one because 894 00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:35,640 there's no evidence either way exactly 895 00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:40,740 yeah yes brain plasticity yes it's real 896 00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:44,160 growth mindset versus fixed mindset we 897 00:38:49,010 --> 00:38:46,020 don't know we don't know if that's real 898 00:38:51,170 --> 00:38:49,020 we should not be teaching as if it was 899 00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:51,180 settled yes 900 00:38:55,609 --> 00:38:53,760 and and brain plasticity how far can it 901 00:38:59,329 --> 00:38:55,619 go we don't do we know that 902 00:39:01,609 --> 00:38:59,339 I don't know yeah but now you say it's 903 00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:01,619 all still interesting areas of research 904 00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:07,069 well now that we've gotten into the 905 00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,060 weeds I've got a nice silly one to end 906 00:39:14,569 --> 00:39:11,040 off with and this is one that I probably 907 00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:14,579 hear more than anything else constantly 908 00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:16,920 and I wonder if it's as prevalent with 909 00:39:23,690 --> 00:39:20,040 you guys as well but whenever there's 910 00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:23,700 any particularly Rowdy student days or 911 00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:26,520 things like that it is constantly blamed 912 00:39:30,490 --> 00:39:29,160 on the full moon I thought you were 913 00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:30,500 going to say sugar 914 00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,040 oh that is a whole other story that we 915 00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:37,920 could get into but no I can't believe 916 00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:41,040 how prevalent that myth is that the full 917 00:39:46,730 --> 00:39:44,400 moon makes kids more hyper or misbehave 918 00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:46,740 more or things like that but it'll be to 919 00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:49,020 the point where I'll have teacher 920 00:39:53,870 --> 00:39:50,940 friends post like oh full Moon's coming 921 00:39:56,089 --> 00:39:53,880 up teachers get ready or even somebody 922 00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:56,099 who posted something along the lines of 923 00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:58,079 if you don't believe that the full moon 924 00:40:05,810 --> 00:40:02,160 causes kids to be more rambunctious you 925 00:40:07,550 --> 00:40:05,820 must not be a teacher and I'm not ready 926 00:40:10,130 --> 00:40:07,560 to start a fight over that or anything 927 00:40:12,410 --> 00:40:10,140 but like usually I just nod and smile 928 00:40:14,030 --> 00:40:12,420 but then I turn away and roll my eyes 929 00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:14,040 because I can't believe that that myth 930 00:40:18,530 --> 00:40:16,560 is still going rounds that is so funny 931 00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:18,540 maybe because I was always in a science 932 00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,599 department I don't recall ever anyone 933 00:40:28,190 --> 00:40:23,520 saying that to me even from a Humanities 934 00:40:30,890 --> 00:40:28,200 or anyone so no I have never had fellow 935 00:40:33,050 --> 00:40:30,900 teachers use that one the sugar one yes 936 00:40:34,849 --> 00:40:33,060 oh my goodness yes as you say that's a 937 00:40:36,530 --> 00:40:34,859 whole other topic 938 00:40:37,970 --> 00:40:36,540 and Michelle what about you with the 939 00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:37,980 moon I was gonna just I was gonna say 940 00:40:43,250 --> 00:40:41,220 I've assumed I would try King I think a 941 00:40:45,109 --> 00:40:43,260 lot of people do mean it jokingly but I 942 00:40:47,569 --> 00:40:45,119 actually had somebody try to start a 943 00:40:50,089 --> 00:40:47,579 fight with me over it once I think a lot 944 00:40:52,250 --> 00:40:50,099 of people do mean it jokingly but then 945 00:40:54,890 --> 00:40:52,260 that perpetuates it and it snowballs it 946 00:40:56,170 --> 00:40:54,900 and I have seen many people mean it very 947 00:40:59,150 --> 00:40:56,180 genuinely 948 00:41:00,410 --> 00:40:59,160 wow are they probably you know this is 949 00:41:02,630 --> 00:41:00,420 an assumption maybe they believe in 950 00:41:05,410 --> 00:41:02,640 astrology as well I mean there's that 951 00:41:09,770 --> 00:41:05,420 whole impact right of the Stars the moon 952 00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:09,780 I once I heard someone say that well the 953 00:41:14,990 --> 00:41:12,720 moon affects the tides so clearly the 954 00:41:17,630 --> 00:41:15,000 moon has an effect on Earth so why 955 00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:17,640 wouldn't it affect people's behaviors 956 00:41:22,550 --> 00:41:20,400 the size of the Moon that you see in the 957 00:41:25,970 --> 00:41:22,560 sky doesn't mean the moon's changing 958 00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:25,980 sizes or anything like a full moon does 959 00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:29,520 not mean that there's more Moon there 960 00:41:34,270 --> 00:41:31,680 and I know that's not what they believe 961 00:41:36,589 --> 00:41:34,280 but like 962 00:41:37,810 --> 00:41:36,599 that's an awesome one to finish with 963 00:41:39,829 --> 00:41:37,820 Kelly 964 00:41:42,050 --> 00:41:39,839 and maybe next time we'll get together 965 00:41:44,170 --> 00:41:42,060 and talk about the sugar one too 966 00:41:49,490 --> 00:41:44,180 yes oh boy 967 00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:52,069 well ladies this has been a blast and 968 00:41:56,450 --> 00:41:54,420 I'm so grateful that you decided to join 969 00:41:58,430 --> 00:41:56,460 me over multiple time zones thank you 970 00:41:59,830 --> 00:41:58,440 Kelly and thank you Michelle until next